BM: Okay. I have my memory goes back that far. I’m happy to tell the story. So I, come from a family, originally South African family that’s always been involved in real estate.

So I knew from a young age, that’s what I wanted to do. I was always fascinated by the field. I studied at, McGill university. And, at the time there was a program in real estate that I participated in and I was very fortunate that one of my professors made an introduction to Jon Wener, who is the founder of Canderel. And, after graduating, I accepted a, what was supposed to be a summer, a summer job, to work for three or four months. For Canderel, I had already booked my ticket to do a European six month trip post summer job. And then I intended to look for a job in Toronto. And, lo and behold, the summer job turned into a permanent job with Canderel. And I stayed at the company for about, seven years. And which was a spectacular start for a young person because it was the I would say was the wild west in real estate in those days, the run up in the late eighties where things were just crazy, a massive amount of construction and new development, all the way into an overheated market that then had a precipitous drop off the cliff.

And so I found myself in 1993 kind of twiddling my thumbs considering myself to be a real estate developer, but with nothing to develop and so I had always wanted to do an MBA . So I I headed off to INSEAD which is an MBA program, in F france just south of Paris, spent a wonderful year there and then spent 10 years in Europe no longer with Canderel. I did a startup. I also worked for, an e-commerce , news international, company in London and post all that excitement with three kids in tow. This was now 2001. I decided, one, I wanted to get back into real estate and two, I wanted to raise my children in Canada and get back to Canada.

And so at that point, I came back to Canada, worked for, CBRE, running firstly, their Montreal operation, and then their Eastern European, Eastern Canadian operations, then switched from the Coke to the Pepsi, which was JLL, CBRE’s number one competitor to be their CEO for Canada, and for six years, built that, that business up, into fairly substantial operation all the while. Maintaining a great relationship with Jon Wener, who’s been a mentor, a friend. An ally in my career all all through the years and in late 2018, he called me up and he said, Brett, I’m turning 70 this year. It’s time for me to not not retire, but take my foot off the the gas and let somebody else continue the acceleration. Would you consider coming into Canderel as our CEO? So, long, long story short, it was a full, kind of 360 degrees. And today I find myself actually sitting in the same desk that I sat in when I was 21 years old. I didn’t get very far.

DA: That’s amazing. What a fantastic story. And, what a wonderful outcome in the end. That’s just incredible. And for you to be able to come back to a company that was obviously so key and critical to your early development and to now play a role in its future. That’s, quite a story, quite unusual. 

BM: Very exciting. Yeah. Yeah. 

DA: And so you had your family in London, France, both.

BM: Yeah . So my three kids were born, in Boulogne, just outside of Paris as a family. We moved to London and then continued on. 

DA: Wow. Fantastic. So, I mean, you, clearly had your sights set on real estate. It’s very unusual. And most of my guests. The typical story is, I had no idea how I got into this industry. It was completely unplanned and, often not something they anticipated. So with you, there was already sort of some early seeds planted. But in the end, it’s still gotta be right for you. So why do you think you were so uniquely suited to the opportunity? What’s helped you to be successful?

BM: I’ve always been fascinated by real estate. I mean, I find, it’s a field that allows for, tremendous creativity. Right. So it’s got the, you know, the technical aspects, whether it’s, finance, whether it’s, you know, engineering with the architecture, but it’s, you know, really you can either create the deal or create the real estate itself. I always found that, that fascinating. It’s a business that’s based on relationships. It’s a business that’s. You know, you’re not pumping out widgets. It’s a high margin, high impact business, and it has an impact, on our society, you know, build a fantastic, development. It really improves people’s lives and something that I don’t know, just excites me.

DA: Yeah. You know, I think the, the notion of creativity, you know, some people would think, well, it’s just real estate, you know, you, it’s construction, but, but I think there is so much creativity actually involved, you know, at all the different stages of the, the development process. And then even when, you know, the building’s up and running in terms of how it’s delivered. To the customer and what you do with the physical interior spaces there’ s a ton of opportunity for creativity. 

BM: No, and and also it changes over time particularly now as the way we use properties and the the the need for them changes they have to be Re engineered you have to re engineer the way you manage them. So if you come at the the sector with innovation, you can do some exciting things 

DA: Well, again, I think that’s another misconception where people look at real estate and think it’s so permanent. And yet I think we we’ve certainly learned and we’ll talk about that. Actually, it’s a good pivot to our our next question that certainly a lot has changed. So I think we can both agree you’ve been through, you know, a lot of different, ups and downs in the industry. But I think we can both agree that this has been one heck of a ride more recently. You know, commercial real estate still the largest asset class in the world, but, you know, still continue to rebound from the prolonged period of these low levels of occupancy and really rethinking reemerging reenergizing in this new world as to how it. You know, provide service and value to people, and delivers that service and value. So our team, you know, we’re certainly really focused on thinking a lot about this new workplace ecosystem and how the physical work space within a building fits into that much larger sort of, opportunity. People can work from anywhere today. People are working from anywhere. So my question, certainly from your lens into the industry is, and what I try to provide to our listeners is a real time view, like what’s going on now and in your world. What are you seeing? How are you seeing the industry reimagining itself and responding to the emerging needs of your customer?

BM: Yeah, listen, David, I won’t candy coat it. It’s been a really rocky three years. Who would have expected COVID? Who would have expected, You know, essentially, a significant inflation who would have expected, an unprecedented, short, you know, rise in interest rates over such a short period. And so you have to, you have to kind of manager with all the blows that are coming at you, across all asset classes, occupant or user or tenant behavior is changing, whether it’s, on the industrial side, whether it’s on retail, and as you referred to on office, which is, I think the area that’s been most significantly impacted. So what are we feeling now? First of all, there’s this, the continued debate of, work from home or versus being in the office. I, I think the last, I don’t know, 24 months, I have not met a single, CEO from the largest companies in the world to the smallest companies in my backyard that don’t say that they want to have their employees back to the office.

And for some, somehow, and this is a very much North American phenomenon. It’s not in Europe. Somehow. The employees who were at home for six to nine months, it wasn’t much more than that, got into their minds that, hey, this, this is a great permanent situation. So we’re going to stay at home. And with some validity, because, there are many, chores or functions or tasks that we perform in the office where, one is working alone in front of a computer screen and there’s no benefit to actually being in a work environment. In fact, yeah. You can argue that maybe with the peace and quiet of working in one’s living room or bedroom, you can actually be more efficient. But, it set that as a kind of behavior and now most companies are saying, okay, well, that’s great, but that’s not what a company is about. You know, if a company was just about a collection of people doing tasks, well, we wouldn’t have companies. We could outsource it all. Right. And, and some have even threatened that, well, we can just outsource, you know, not to a 50 kilometers from Toronto, we could outsource 5,000 kilometers away to India. And so, most CEOs are recognizing that to really run a company and to grow a company we need the employees back at the office. And so in in real time, I find, every three months that goes by the pendulum is swinging a little bit more in favor of return to the office.

But, I am very conscious of the fact that we can’t, it’s not just a one sided discussion where the employer says, get back to the office or else, it has to be, ‘ we would like you to come back to the office’ and here are the benefits. Right. And so every employer is trying to increase those benefits, but they can’t do it alone. And I think there’s an important part and important role for building managers and owners to be a partner in that process, because if you think of the office experience, it’s not limited to just the square footage you occupy where your computer sits. It’s the journey to work, the feeling of the arrival, and then all of the animation activities, around your work day, whether you go to the gym or you go pick up a sandwich, or you go out, you know, with friends, for a cocktail or a drink after work. And so, the owner of the property has an increasingly important role to play in that. 

DA: So I 100 percent agree. One of my questions that I typically ask, and you beat me to it is, what responsibility or how closely should building owners be and operators be working with their, their customers, their tenants, their occupiers to help support them and help them attract and retain the best talent and and create the experiences that will help build great companies.

It was interesting, when you use the word company, that ultimately, by the very nature of that, it means we come together at times and of course company means in the company you keep another definition and only dawned on me as you just said, and I’m not sure why I haven’t clued into that before. But I agree. I mean, if we all want to be freelancers, we can choose not to work for a company per se and just provide hoc basis. But I think there is an opportunity to come together. And again, you’re right if your task can be more efficiently performed remotely, then that might be okay, too.

I don’t think it’s a one size fits all. I know you’re doing some exciting, you’ve done some exciting thinking and now have some exciting, I mean, sort of outcome of all that to, to share and to show, around how the building can be more. Supportive of your tenants and your occupants. I’m just wondering if you’d like to share a little bit about that.

BM: Yeah, gladly. So for the most part, the last 50 years, if you ask the, the owner of a property, who’s their customer, they would say, well, my customer is the, the tenant, the corporation that signs the lease and pays me the rent and the result, there’s been very little. Exposure, dialogue, communication with the real customer and the real customer is the occupant or the user of the space, which is the employee. And so, in order to, I can’t call it, create a better offering for that employee. You need to communicate and, shape your marketing to speak to the employee customer. And so we’ve come out with an interesting concept, which we call Okkto , which is a made up word, that kind of comes off the tongue relatively easily.

And, that is to address to employees, not to the tenants to say, hey , you know, we are thinking about your work lifestyle balance and used to be a distinction between what was work and what was life and we’ve passed those days and it’s all really now about, work life synergy, right?

So how can you integrate both into your work day? And so Okkto says, well, the building speaks to you because we will be an ensemble of all sorts of activities that are integral to your life. So when you come to our building, you’re not just coming to work, but you’re coming to live. And so Okkto has actually five components to it.

The first is the, as I referred to earlier, the, the, the arrival experience. So you’re not walking into an intimidated lobby that’s made of concrete and granite and designed to intimidate, but rather something that feels a little bit more soft and, and like your home or like a boutique hotel. So we’re in the process with Okkto of softening up lobbies to make seating areas with aromas, with music and with food components. So you’re, it’s a welcoming environment. 

With a second component, which is the human experience, the concierge. So somebody says, hey Jack, how you doing today? You know, can I grab you a coffee? Or do you need an umbrella or nice to see you coming into work today, welcome . 

The third is recognizing that within the building, you’re going to work in space that’s adapted to each of the activities you perform some at your desk, but then also in conference centers and employee lounges. So the Okkto buildings will have these, shared conference lounge floors. So that also is a great offering to tenants. They can take a little bit less space and have the large boardroom accessible to be used, twice a month, as opposed to having it within their premises. 

And then the, the fourth is called the wellness component. So that’s, the yoga, that’s the gym , that’s the parking for your bicycle bike commuting. That’s the shop showers and towel service. 

And then the fifth, which I think is the most important. It’s all about the community management. And that’s about, animation of the activities. So the building can create, a wine club or a group that goes walking on Mount Royal at lunch hour or, offer learning courses with a wealth manager or nutritionist or all sorts of specialists and come into the building and cater to that community.

And that’s been done in conjunction with the demands of the companies who may do that as a private events for their own employees but also in conjunction with all of the employees in the building, so we could say to the employee at that point , so sure, you could stay at home and you can work in your living room and talk to nobody and learn nothing and not network and not socialize. Or you can come to this place which is called the office building, but it’s got so much more. You know, don’t you think it’s worth the effort? And by the way, we need you to contribute your living, breathing, smart individual. We need your contribution. We need your social contribution to our company.

We don’t just need your work output. So there’s all of these arguments that seem to, it seems to resonate. When we launched Okkto, we were overwhelmed with all of the questions and responses and journalist inquiries as to what this means. And, it’s a way of differentiating the product. And I think the buildings that do this or, you know, similar activities will be the winners in terms of its, their overall occupancy and profitability. 

DA: Yeah, well, congratulations. I know there are still a lot of building owners and operators that still have their head buried a little bit in the sand, hoping that things might just, you know, naturally return to the way that they were. I don’t think that’s the case. You’ve clearly taken a very proactive stance. And done something that I think is going to be, you know, remarkably differentiating for, for your buildings and for the industry. It’s bang on with a lot of the way that we think about spaces and, the way we view the real customer.

And, you know, fortunately, you are not the first to come on the program and now articulate that the customer is each and every person that walks in the building. Versus the person that signs the lease. So, there are more and more people that are coming to that realization and doing some very creative things.

And this is an amazing example. And, you know, for us as a technology company, we’re also thinking about how then to provide technology that allows the user, the end user, the customer to move in and around all these different spaces in a very seamless, easy to use, you know, one stop solution. So they don’t have, you know, five apps and three websites and four portals from their employer or from the building, and from perhaps other applications that they might use to help navigate through all of these opportunities. So it’s a very exciting time. 

BM: Well, and I’ll say, the key to the success of Okkto or these animation programs is really the technology component. One thing we are unable to do is email all of the employees with all our tenants. You know, that’s a line we won’t cross. So then, how do we really communicate on these programs and such? And sure we can have, banners in the lobby. We can have a concierge that explains them. But in an ideal situation, we have one app. Which manages all of these activities, is the key channel for communication and as we’ve talked about the ideal is if it can also be used as a digital, entry and touchless key entry into premises or use of the elevators or parking lots, because then you really have repetitive use of the app and allows us to then develop a real relationship with that employee. 

DA: And I think the key is the relationship. I think that the opportunity to better understand, the end users needs and be able to connect and communicate and be able, the way we look at to be eventually able to personalize that service. And maybe even the content on the platform on that app on that through that digital connectivity. How do we now send them communication that actually we already know they were really interested in yoga or they do love wine and maybe they would attend an exclusive wine event one evening.

So the more we can make it relevant to the end user and not just blast out generic content, the more uptake I think we’ll have as well. So, a lot of opportunity for a technology company to be thinking about also how to better engage, with the customer, you know, you talked a lot about the work that you’re doing in the space. And it’s remarkable, we also really think about buildings as not just as silos, but also very much part of neighborhoods and cities and we’ve certainly seen in the urban core the negative impact of buildings during the height of COVID being empty and the impact that that’s had on local businesses and downtown core. So we are looking to also form partnerships with those downtown areas and, you know, look at ways in which we can create more amenities, not even within the building, but through connection to various neighborhood businesses. Any thoughts on the responsibility of building owners and occupiers, you know, in terms of helping to build more vibrant cities at this point.

BM: Yeah, I believe it’s essential the cities right across Canada have all various initiatives to try to stimulate downtown and provide some breaks for the retailers. But look, I think we think we also have to think our cities is in the physical space and also the virtual space, so maybe through your technology you’re connecting, whether it’s the physiotherapy student or the studio or it’s the dental clinic or others where, even if people are not downtown, they’re part of the downtown community and connecting through the app and booking appointments and such. But it’s a challenge and I would say the biggest challenge we’re facing right now is really the timid nature of our large employees and, in fact, government to get their work back if you, if you discect the profile of companies, say, less than 50 people and plus 50 people, you will see in the under 50 people companies for the most part, they’re back five days . They’re back and the owner of the company or the manager of that small division is there and has enough connect constant contact with employees to say, hey , you’re in the office 100%. It’s the big banks, the insurance companies, the large engineers, large tech companies that are really fearful to hands on their employees and that hurts our downtown , those are huge volumes of people. 

DA: And Government to your point , you did mention government in certain cities. That’s that’s not just huge it’s pretty much all. So that’s a problem.

BM: I mean, I shake in my boots when I think you know what will happen to Ottawa if the federal government represents more than 50 percent of occupied space, if we continue on this basis of minimum two days a week, Ottawa will be destroyed. And the problem is when downtowns don’t have, activity and population, then they become dangerous places and you have the homeless community that is there on a frequent basis and it’s very hard to reverse that trend.

DA: I agree. Well, we’re heading into a short commercial break and I don’t want to do it on a down note, but I think on a positive note, I think we can both agree that the opportunity to be more collaborative and to create more vibrant downtowns. Certainly there’s not, it is our responsibility and there is a lot to be gained by doing it. So we have our work cut out for us on that front. Let’s take a short commercial break and we’ll be right back. 

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We are in the midst of a seismic shift in the evolution of the workplace. Now more than ever, it’s clear that the most important asset of a building is the people. Commercial real estate leaders recognize that tenants And employees want new kinds of spaces, services, and amenities to support having the flexibility to work from anywhere.

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DA: And now I’d like to welcome back to the show. Brett Miller, CEO , Canderel. You know, we’ve talked a little bit about technology, given that’s sort of what we do every day. And we certainly believe it’s playing a significant role in helping to shape how building operators are delivering great customer experience, how they’re running their buildings, how they’re engaging with their customers. You know, certainly we both spoke about it. Workplace engagement being uppermost in everyone’s mind. Just curious with a focus on continuing to evolve to meet the needs of people and buildings and certainly ESG initiatives. What technologies have you looked at, are you looking at, that are having an impact on contributing to create a better experience in your buildings?

BM: That’s a very good question. And I would say that, over the last four or five years, we are being on the forefront of, experimenting with various technologies, you know, both on the customer experience, but also on the, on the backend, and, and I would say to be honest with limited success, what we’re trying to do these days is work very closely with our technology providers to ensure that we have a seamless, integration into our operations because stand alone technologies, just don’t work. It’s too cumbersome. And in fact, you know, they’re often sold on the idea that they’re going to increase efficiency, and we could potentially reduce manual input and manual labor, and in fact, it actually increases it.

So we are, we’re very much, adopting the, the latest of Yardi’s platform. And so now we, we make it a mandate to our various technology providers to be fully integrated into Yardi so we can have a very seamless environment. But one of the biggest challenges that most real estate companies face is ensuring continual and seamless communication between all of the departments.

We’ve somehow created an industry that is extremely siloed, between asset management development, construction, leasing, property management, and all of these, most real estate companies are organized by departments as such, and then as information comes into one department, it trickles or is, is inefficiently sent to the next department. So we’re trying to clear that up to make one company as opposed to seven companies. So technology has a big role there. And I would say, you know, groups such as yourselves and some of the work that we’re doing with our sustainability group are cross functional, right? And so it’s a combination of in your case, I call it, you know, marketing, property management construction, even accounting and finance has to work together in order for the programs like Okkto to be successful. And so, that’s helping to break down some of the barriers. Another example of this is something we call RNZ, Road to Net Zero. I think I’m probably speaking out of turn because we’re only launching it in three weeks, which is really, Canderel’s , I guess initiative to try to move buildings to carbon neutrality in a very proactive real world manner, as opposed to just making statements and saying we’re aiming to do something by 2050. We recognize that the industry is extremely fragmented in terms of the move to carbon neutral. You have to get the auditors, you have to get the engineers, you have to get the certifiers, you have to get the construction groups, you have to get the, the design build, HVAC, companies to all work together and companies are other than the, say the largest pension funds are completely overwhelmed by the complexity of doing that. So what we’ve done is put together an ecosystem of all of those providers into a one stop shop that we call RNZ. So much so that we’ve already done two pilot projects and from establishing the roadmap , just sourcing the subsidies and funds to do so, to looking at the impact on the building’s operating expenses and amortization of capital expenditures to putting in place.

We’ve managed to compress that in one instance down to 15 months. So we’ll take a building from essentially carbon emissions to 95 percent carbon free in a period of 15 months in a very effective manner. And so we’re rolling that out as a concept across our portfolio and as a service offering to the industry. And so coming back to your point on technology. And the silos that couldn’t be possible if we didn’t get all of our departments working together, working off the Yardi platform, and then taking these various, solution specific technologies, within Yardi now to be able to evaluate where we’re going to the end, you know, end result.

DA: Well, I think you raise a good point. I think it’s not about choosing vendors. I think it’s about choosing partners. And, just as you’re looking at how to make your internal team, you know, more collaborative and more inclusive. I think that the external, teams that come into play, they’ve got to be seen as partners and they’ve got to be embedded in the ecosystem and look at ways to, you know, create a more seamless solution versus, you know, this vendor provides this service and this vendor provides this service that that is not going to be sustainable.

BM: Yeah. And we actually on this RNZ program spent most of our time working with these various vendors to actually, get them to provide a, you know, kind of collaborative solution as opposed to their solution. That was the hardest thing to do. 

DA: I’m sure, I’m sure. Yeah. It’ll pay, but I’m sure, it likely will pay big dividends in the future as well. Listen, so we could, we could go on and talk for a long time about all that we’ve already touched on, but I want to just close with a little speed round, just an opportunity to get to know you, Brett, a little bit better. So when you’re not working, when you’re not sort of doing what you are most passionate about, in terms of real estate, what do you do? What do you enjoy to do in your off time? 

BM: You know, definitely, very active with the family, but, I’m a big, runner, cyclist, mountain biker, anything that is a little bit, you know, long endurance and painful. And then I also, I have my, I’m a hobby farmer. We have a farm just, about an hour and a half away from Montreal. And, there’s never a dull moment on the farm. 

DA: Amazing. Well, I share the passion for running and riding, do the Ride to Conquer Cancer each year, and, love that experience. What’s your favorite drink of choice, your favorite beverage? 

BM: Oh, gosh. Well, I, I, I do like, red wine, but, I would say if I had to have a cocktail, a Negroni.

DA: Okay. All right. Well, we’re two for two. I am a red wine lover and have a cellar that I enjoy stocking and partaking in on a regular basis. Favorite TV series or current movie that you’re watching?

BM: Oh, this is an excellent one. It’s called, Le Bureau. It’s a French, it’s not on Netflix it’s on, Prime video and it’s about the equivalent of the French CIA. Dealing with most kind of Middle East, North African, spy issues. It’s a really great series.

DA: I will check that out for sure. Name one way in which technology has specifically improved how you live or work?

BM: Well, I gotta, if you’re a cyclist, I gotta say Strava. 

DA: Yeah, yeah. So you got it all connected and you got the little…

BM: Strava and Zwift. Right.

DA: Right, yeah. Okay you got it on the smartphone too. Are you all, are you all connected or you’re all digitally connected? 

BM: No, for sure. But then on a, on a work perspective, we’ve just gone through, for CRM, we’ve just integrated Microsoft Dynamics and so our kind of sales pipeline and all my contacts are now on my mobile and it’s a terrific way to just to follow activity right across the company. 

DA: Amazing. What is your personal choice, for days spent? In person with your colleagues versus working from anywhere?

BM: I’m absolutely in the office with my colleagues. But I do like, working remotely on Fridays. 

DA: Fair enough. 

BM: One day as a heads down quiet day.

DA: Healthy balance. And I think it is all about the balance, right? Brett, I’ve so enjoyed this conversation, learned a lot. Great to get to know you better. Great to better understand the way in which Canderel is responding and heading, meeting the demands of, of your customer head on. Very exciting. I look forward to future conversations. I hope this is the first of many, and I wish you continued success. 

BM: Well, thank you very much for having me on the show, a great conversation and look forward to catching up. Thank you. Take care now. Thank you. 

DA: I want to thank Brett Miller for joining me on this episode of TEN and for contributing to the global conversation around buildings. Being part of a robust ecosystem, helping to build great companies, that they are vital in the effort to cultivate and support great people and teams. The future of the workplace will likely take many forms. And we will continue to explore what that looks like together. Subscribe to TEN for more conversations with leading CRE industry professionals and experts who all have something to say about TEN’s experience and the future of the workplace.

We love hearing from you, so if you enjoyed this episode of TEN, please share, add your rating and review us through your preferred podcast provider. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on a future episode, please reach out to me directly at david@hiloapp.com. And until our next episode, I wish you all continued success in building community where you work and live. Thank you.