GW: Sure. So I think the first thing was I made a conscious decision to go to a school that had a major in real estate and so that was brand new. So the University of Guelph had a Bachelor of Commerce program. The year that I went to the school, they offered a commercial or not a commercial, a real estate major. There were 13 of us in the class. That was the impetus and the start for me and it was through that that I managed to get a summer job with a company and work for a couple of great guys who were good enough to give me a chance and it was really through a couple of relationships I developed during those summers that led to my name being floated to a few spots. So I started fresh out of school as an analyst on the commercial debt desk at Sun Life doing a lot of valuation work. I ended up doing two deals where I financed two properties that gave me a little bit of a transactional bug and then sort of back to that summer work I did, I received a really fortunate phone call from Cadillac Fairview and at that time was offered an opportunity to join them and it was a really exciting time to be in the business, to get exposed to the transactional side of the business and through that, I met a lot of people and managed to transact a lot and ended up ultimately joining GWL Realty Advisors, who really at that time, the year 2000, felt like they were right on the cusp of some major growth and through the opportunity with them, I kind of went from being very transactional oriented to being given the opportunity to have a leadership position. So transactional and leadership and it was through that, that I was then offered the opportunity to start to do some different things and so getting out of being transactional and into more of an asset management and from that, there were some leadership opportunities afforded to me and those leadership opportunities then afforded me to pick up some geographies in different asset classes and all to say, David, over the course of just over 20 years, my scope changed 10, 11 times on average every two years and so it really meant a lot of learning, a lot of earning, trust and through all of that, I have found myself into the spot that I am today and still learning, learning a lot each and every day.

DA: Right. Amazing. Well, so I guess I have two questions. One question comment. It’s not that common that I hear someone that has actually started in university college and knew that they wanted to get some educational exposure to commercial real estate. So I’m curious about that. Why? And then just in general, as you’ve evolved in this position, why do you think you were so uniquely suited to the opportunity? Like what’s helped you to become successful in this role?

GW: Yeah. So I think it was the uniqueness of the role as a young person. I always liked looking at buildings, looking at houses, looking at physical structure and so it was unique and I hadn’t heard of it and at the time, University of British Columbia was the only other school that had anything that resembled it. So it was really it was really that that that drew me to it. You know, people’s success. It’s unique. We’re all unique. So there’s a unique blend of experiences, a unique blend of strengths, of weaknesses. I think if you couple that with a curiosity to always try to be learning new things. I think if one pushes themselves, if an individual is comfortable, comfortable being uncomfortable regularly and you accumulate all those things together with probably most important who you’ve been exposed to throughout your career, who you’ve worked closely with, who you’ve got to watch in action, who you’ve got to bounce ideas from. So there’s a lot of people that I’ve learned a ton over the years and I’m really grateful for the relationships that I’ve had and what I’ve learned from them, not just about business, just about life and so that’s been great and I would say, again, just learning and putting yourself into environments, you know, education, reading books. I joined a group years ago called McKay CEO Forums where I would sit with a facilitated group every single month, leaders in different industries. There was a lot of trust that we could share a lot and the idea was to come with a challenge you have and you would get the perspective of every person in that room and whether it was your challenge or someone else’s, it always had light bulbs that went off and so I would just say constant curiosity and a desire to always learn and try to be the best you can be.

DA: Yeah, interesting. I think as a common thread of from all the guests that I’ve had on this program, when I asked the question and I think this notion of being a perpetual learning learner, a lifelong learner and the notion of curiosity certainly has been a dominant theme and then, of course, what everyone will attest to is just the importance of relationships and how valuable that’s been in each and every person’s journey in this industry. I think it’s very much a relationship based industry. 

GW: Yeah, very much so. 

DA: Yeah. So today I’m really interested in discussing how commercial real estate is continuing to evolve. It’s having to work harder than ever before to meet the needs of people today and also the introduction of technology and how that’s further enhancing customer experience and all contributing to what I like to say, making places destinations of choice. We don’t believe in mandates. We don’t believe in being forced back to work. We really think that as the purpose of office has changed, it creates an opportunity and it’s no longer about space. It’s about creating experiences that will make people valued and connected and supported. So, you know, my thinking is that, you know, those that really take on this new transformation, they’re the ones that are going to emerge as the successors. They’re the ones that are going to understand the importance of merging this notion of experience and workplace functionality. So I’m just curious what your thoughts are on how the commercial real estate industry is evolving and your business in particular and how you’re adapting.

GW: Yeah, so a lot there. You know, I’m going to start not with office. I know you touched on that. I’m going to go to office. You know, think about our multifamily business and what we’ve been doing there for many years. We’ve been a very active developer in that space and what are the environments that we’re trying to create there? As everyone knows, in Canada, the stock, relatively speaking, is old. It’s only relatively recently that new stock has been added and what are the ingredients there? And the ingredients are highly amenitized spaces, spaces where there’s a lot of natural light, trying to create environments where the individuals that live within that building feel like they’re a part of that specific community in the community around them and so I think the multifamily space, we’re seeing some of those things, you know, leak into other asset classes. If I step back and think about when I was younger in the business, I’m going in the office space now. I was in New York City. I had been in the business for maybe three years and I was touring buildings down there to see what they were doing and I remember being incredibly surprised at how little they were doing at that point in time. You’d look at the lobby. You’d look at the common areas. You’d look at the washrooms. Those were all basic and I was underwhelmed with the quality and caliber and what it spoke to was the state of the market at that time. They didn’t need to to generate the income and the revenue. So let’s fast forward with all the technological advancements that corporations have had and experienced and witnessed. Let’s go to Calgary 10 plus years ago. Peking, brand new, beautiful buildings being built. Oil does what oil does and all of a sudden we’ve got a really, really challenged market and if I think about Canada, who adapted first? It was a market that was experiencing severe challenge and so you start to look at the amenitization, the program curation. You walk around Calgary. I’ve never seen so many gyms and so many amenities and they did that because they had to attract tenants. Tenants had so many options. You weren’t even on the list if you didn’t offer a lot of these base, new base ingredients and I think we’re now seeing that spill over into all kinds of different markets because you are competing for people, businesses, tenants and organizations want the best of the best and even before the pandemic, you look at all the new development in a city like Toronto here. What were the ingredients to success then? It was connectivity to major transit, highly amenitized, tons of light, great conditioning, great systems that ultimately results in hopefully a sense of belonging for people and for individuals and to feel connected and part of the vibrancy that comes with living in the city.

DA: We’ve been saying for some time that offices are becoming more home-like and homes are becoming more office-like, right? Taking the best of both worlds and they’re starting to bleed into each other. So I think that’s an interesting point and certainly you’re right, I guess and when there were dire times for Calgary, some of these efforts started at that point and now the pandemic, I think, has caused this major shift for the industry as a whole. It’s no longer one geography or one country. We’re all sort of understanding how the purpose in particular of office has changed and how that’s influencing real estate decisions. So to that extent, any thoughts on that in terms of how purpose, why we come to work and how that continues to evolve? And how are you seeing that impact your business?

GW: Well, I’m seeing us make major capital decisions in assets that we have a lot of conviction for. So from a location perspective and from a physical bones perspective, we’ve been making a lot of investment into these assets specifically for what you’re speaking to and, you know, I think a little bit about how does real estate impact Maslow’s hierarchy of needs? You think about the basics of human elements, the psychological needs that all of us have, the safety needs that all of us have. But you start to get into the social need, the sense of family, the sense of friendship, of community, of belonging and then you start to think about the respect one has for themselves. But what about the respect that they gain from others and people’s status, their sense of contribution? And ultimately realizing one’s full potential, because I think that’s what everybody ultimately is after and ultimately, I think that’s what organizations are after is what is their full potential and what are all the ingredients that decision makers need to try to realize their potential? And so I think the environment, the physical environment plays a meaningful part of that and then we’ve got the physical environment and the technological overlay and, you know, how do those things blend together to create a great experience whereby, you know, we want what do we want for our company? We want people to feel like they belong, that they can be who they are, that they’re not afraid to voice their opinion, to share their ideas. We want them excited. We want them engaged. We want them inspired and so can we create surroundings and communities that best contribute to those ingredients?

DA: I love that you’re thinking of all of those things and I think you’ll agree that, you know, your business has not gotten easier. I think it’s gotten more difficult only because now, you know, it was the old adage, build it and they will come and today, you’ve got to be thinking about all the things that you just hit the nail on the head. There are just so many different parts of the business that need to be considered. You know, I think people now coming into buildings, they’re going to continue to expect this one stop, seamless, personalized and perhaps digital experience and to your point, it’s how do we enable them to feel more connected to foster productivity and help make people work easier and better? So, you know, I think customer experience and engagement in buildings, we think is going to be improved one interaction at a time. So to that end, just any thoughts you have around technology. What is it doing to deliver better customer experience? What’s working? What’s not working? And maybe what’s missing?

GW: Yeah, great, great, great question. So there’s there’s a few things that come to mind right away about the customer experience and I think about when you’re an occupant in a building. You realize things when you have a problem or an issue. I’m too hot. I’m too cold. I can’t get up the elevator or there’s friction or discomfort and so I think about some of the technologies that. Firstly, there’s a lot of technology out there and here’s what it does and here’s what it can do and then you put time and energy into it. You kind of lift open the hood and you take a look in and you realize that the intention is for it to do all those things. But in reality, can it do that? That’s one and then two, how does it interact with the other systems within the building, which are often all separate and all different? So I think about one technology, for example, that we utilized, and it was an AI based technology that was overlaid onto some hardware and it was predictive in nature and it related to the weather and it really tried to fine tune and optimize. The system turning on and off and sort of feathering on and off to address, you know, real cold weather or real warm weather with buildings often have time adjusting to and it works. The energy required to get it to work and the energy of the resourcing and the buy in of the people and the believing that new technology can do things different, that’s a huge lift and that’s one building and then so the idea is to scale these things if they actually have benefit and then you get into people saying, well, is it that technology or is it the system or is it other factors? What I think we’re starting to see is we’re starting to see these technologies come together and embed with the manufacturers. That’s a bit of a game changer and I think back to years ago, I had the opportunity to tour a major global infrastructure company and I walked into this room. There was hundreds of screens, weather systems throughout the globe, all of their assets everywhere, all in one so they could see everything in one spot and as a real estate professional, you kind of aspire to that and it would be magical if you could see it all in one spot and lights are going off and on and things are good here and we need to do things here. To get there is a remarkable task because all these buildings are different. Their systems are different. How the language speaks is different and so I think there’s a huge opportunity for us, but I don’t think there’s a silver bullet. You don’t flip the switch and all of a sudden everything’s great. So we try to try different things in different locations with different teams and when something works, we want to shine a light on it and then try to leverage that experience and implement where we can. There’s a lot of technology out there and you have to allocate time to it and that is a constraint because how we allocate as real estate companies, our resources, you’ve got your business as usual and then you’ve got your how do you advance the cause? And so the tech space is exciting. We engaged a team exclusively on building excellence and innovation and their job is to be out there, not real estate people, to be out there looking for tech, to be out there understanding AI opportunities and really to have optimization mindsets and it’s critical for us to invest in that team so that they can explore the myriad of opportunities that exist out there.

DA: I think carving out some resources that have that mandate and that aren’t bogged down with the day to day, I think makes a ton of sense and, you know, hopefully that brings clarity to sort of their mission and vision and hopefully then they are able to funnel back their learning and find opportunities to collaborate with the teams that are doing the work.

GW: And I think from a tech perspective as well, whether it’s data collection, whether it’s sensor technologies, can we be smarter about how we operate our buildings? Can we draw less energy to operate our buildings? Can we make equipment last longer because it’s very astutely managed and looked after? Do all those things contribute to our environmental footprint in a positive way? There’s a lot of great things out there that that we try to capitalize on. But as you would know, it’s a wide space.

DA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it looks like you’re tackling it, which is awesome. You know, along with others, I really believe that this reinvention that the commercial real estate industry is going through represents a significant opportunity for the industry and I’m just curious, if budget were not an issue, if we could throw money and resources, you know, at a particular opportunity, what initiatives would you undertake to position your business for success, ultimately to help ensure relevancy? You know, as the future of work story continues to take shape and evolve, you know, we want to make sure that commercial real estate three to five years from now is the best that it can be. Any thoughts on that?

GW: So if I heard you correctly, you’re granting me three wishes. 

DA: Yes. Unlimited money, unlimited resources. 

GW: Love it. Thank you. First thing I touched on earlier, like the whole tech space. So 80 percent of tech or prop tech doesn’t necessarily work, but some of it does and so if I had unlimited time and resources and capital. We would explore that very, very meaningfully, very aggressively and if I think about the AI cap capabilities that are being created and developed as we speak, I think you really can transform your business from an operational perspective. So that would definitely be an area. The second area that I would invest very heavily in would be hospitality mentality, whether that’s people getting the best of the best from a hospitality perspective and or training or both. I think the hospitality mentality is critical for our business, and I think there’s a huge area of opportunity, and I think the industry as a whole is moving in that direction. Unlimited resources, we could accelerate that in a very meaningful way and I guess the third thing that I would do. I would allocate some resources, some capital to creating a couple of companies that sit outside of GWL Realty Advisors, completely outside of it on its own, so that they are not constrained by the historic methods that we have in our approach to business and I would let them pursue somewhat independently new avenues of business within the real estate space that we don’t play in and haven’t touched and hopefully those things could flourish and turn into meaningful businesses on their own over time. Those would be the three things that come to mind. I love it.

DA: Well, the last one is almost like it’s a startup mentality, right? Legacy, traditional, big business. So I love that idea, and that’s how we think and I think that’s really smart. We’ll pick up on the hospitality theme in just a moment, because you’ve definitely touched on a theme that I’ve been thinking a lot about. We’ll pick that up right after a short commercial break.

GW: Sure. Sounds good.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

DA: And now I’d like to welcome back to the show Glenn Way, President, GWL Realty Advisors. Again, I’m so glad you could be with us today.

GW: Thanks, David.

DA: You mentioned before the break this whole concept of hospitality. So I just want you to know that guest after guest on this program has echoed this sentiment that each and every person that enters the building is now viewed as a customer. So not just the person that signs the lease every five or 10 years and I think that’s been a pretty major shift as CEOs and presidents now recognize that we’ve got to be thinking about every single person and so that changes the game dramatically, gives more voice to each and every occupant in terms of how they consume experiences and interact with physical spaces and I think we’re at a moment in time, to your point, where owners and operators know we need to think more like, we already talked about multifamily, but I also think we need to think more like the hotel industry and the restaurant industry and this whole notion of hospitality, I think, can be an equalizer across all asset classes, new buildings, old buildings, big buildings, small buildings. Being more hospitable does not just mean more capital investment. Amenities are great. Let’s build out all that we can. But being hospitable can be the simplest of things and I think that creates an opportunity for us to do a whole lot more. So what if office buildings were more like hotels and restaurants? What if hospitality was this new currency? That’s ultimately how we measure success. So I’d love to get more of your thoughts, your reaction to this notion of hospitality and what it could really mean for the commercial real estate industry, specifically office.

GW: I love where you’re going here. I think back to an experience I had. It was a number of years ago. I walked into a building to head upstairs to a meeting. There was someone at the desk. I’m not going to call them a security guard because they weren’t dressed like a security guard. They had a suit on. They stood up and they walked right towards me. They said, hi, sir. My name is so-and-so. Can I help you? I said, yes, I have a meeting with so-and-so company. They said, oh, listen, follow me. They’re over here. They’re on the 16th floor. They pressed the button for me. They said, once you get off the elevator, take a right. You’ll be greeted right there. I walked away from that, and I felt good. You feel good. It took the time. It took a little bit of energy, to your point. Was it hard? No and how did I feel? I felt great and so I’ve shared that story a lot with people because it’s, to your point, it is a small, simple example that goes a long way that shouldn’t be that hard to implement. So I’m with you. Think about a great hotel that you’ve been to. What are the ingredients of the hotel? What is it about the experience that you love, and why do you go back to that hotel? And the same would apply to a restaurant and so the ones that you love, you love and you think about the experiences you have where you go, wasn’t great. Am I going to go back? I’m not going to go back and what were you telling people? And then how did you feel when you were there? It goes back to, are you engaged? Are you inspired? Are you excited about the vibrancy or the energy that exists within a place? I’m with you 100%. That is the direction things are going to go.

DA: I hosted a webinar called Making Places Destinations of Choice and at the end, we had a bit of a brainstorm on what kinds of things, really simple things, zero budget things that we could do to deliver that kind of experience and one person suggested, listen, you’ve got a whole operations team that are at the building, certainly as early as eight, earlier than eight, but certainly let’s call it 8.30 AM when maybe people are arriving more en masse. What if your entire operations team between 8.30 and 9.15 or 9.30 actually came out to the lobby floor and just greeted people and welcomed people to the building? Yes, it took away maybe 30 minutes or 45 minutes from what they would normally be doing. But what impact would that have on people entering the building to just see a number of people, ambassadors of the building, of the experience that’s being offered, welcoming you, engaging with you, maybe showing you around, whatever the case may be, right?

GW: Yeah, if you walk into a building in the morning and someone says, hey, good morning, David, how are you today? Or you walk into a building, someone’s got their head down, completely ignores you, completely different experience and easy, to your point, it doesn’t take too much to offer that.

DA: Listen, I love all the effort and the investment that’s being made around amenities and this whole flight to quality, certainly in amenity rich buildings. But our feeling is let’s not get so bogged down in amenities and the cost associated with them when there are so many other things that we could do that actually have even more impact than building a fitness center that someone goes to once or twice in January and then stops going to in February. So I think there’s a lot of opportunity and we’re continuing to dialogue and brainstorm on what those activities could look like.

GW: Well, you’re making me think a little bit, David. We’re all in the business of generating value, whether that’s for the individual, whether that’s for the organization, whether that’s for the community and I always view it, there’s two forms of value. There’s economic value, which we’re all familiar with, and then there’s social value and how can an office building in a downtown contribute to social value? Can we create and generate social value? And so I think about the rooftop of the building I’m in right now. Typically, over the years, that roof would just sit there and receive the elements. We partnered with a group based out of Montreal. We now have 18 rooftops across the country in very urban, dense urban settings, and they’re being used for farming and so we’re growing fresh, healthy fruit and vegetables and then we’re donating that, the harvest to local groups or organizations that support those in need in the community and we sometimes have our tenants go up and do the harvesting and so to me, now you’re checking a lot of the boxes that we’ve talked about, where your underutilized space is now being utilized for good purpose and a lot of people benefit from it, not just the recipients, but the people engaged and involved in being part of that and that’s one example. I think about the lobby of buildings. You could be in a lobby that has absolutely no energy in it. It’s got beautiful light, beautiful setting. Or you could be in a lobby that is curated in a fashion that is inviting, that becomes a social space, not just for building occupants, but for the community at large and there’s remarkable opportunities in terms of what we can do within that space to make it vibrant. So it’s a place people want to be and spend time, as opposed to wasted space, wasted opportunity, whereby people walk in, walk out, and that’s it.

DA: I’m with you on the lobbies. I think there are a number of great examples, particularly in Toronto. We’re starting to see it as a theme across North America. Just an incredible opportunity and you have to remember, there was a period of time where just this notion of very clean and sparse and elegant and don’t sit. That was the feeling at the time that people thought they wanted and it’s completely changed and I think it’s incredibly exciting. The potential there is enormous and again, not a huge gap. The lobby already exists, right? You’re just now making it more functional. You know, we all bring a lot of backgrounds, perspectives, expertise to this world of office and the future of work. What else are you thinking about? What haven’t we talked about that really is sort of something that you’re spending a lot of time thinking about in terms of your business and how it’s going to impact this larger workplace ecosystem in terms of the office being central to that, whether it be ESG, IoT or ROI or M&A? What are you thinking about?

GW: I do. I mean, as an owner of scale from a Canadian context, I do think about the population within the assets that we own and it’s significant. There’s thousands of businesses. There’s 20,000 people that live within our multifamily. So there’s these huge volumes of people and so you do start to think about that collective and what can we do to generate value for that body of individuals? Are there things, are there different business models whereby, you know, we’re helping create value for companies? Can we participate along the way? There’s a volume of individuals that should result in benefit and so we’re trying to explore ways on how we can complement and leverage that collective, if you will. I don’t have all the answers to it naturally, but it certainly strikes me as there’s an opportunity there and I think as data and as more information is understood and more patterns are understood and more out of the box thinking occurs, we might be in a very exciting place as you fast forward five to 10 years in terms of what’s possible.

DA: I agree. I agree. There’s so much to look forward to and I think it just requires creativity and the willingness to sort of look at the industry through different eyes and see what does not yet exist. So I’m excited as well. Our closing speed round is an opportunity to get to know you, Glenn, a little bit better, more on a personal level. So just curious, looking back, what is one piece of advice that you wish someone had given you when you first started out in your career?

GW: Somebody gave me this advice, but I received it much later in my career. I wish I was told to start reading. As a young person, I was busy working hard and playing hard. Somebody that was a mentor to me, probably when I was about 40, maybe late 30 said, do you read? I said, not enough, not really and he said, you got to read and man, I’ve read a lot of books since that time, and I wish I had started much sooner.

DA: I think that’s probably great advice for our listeners, particularly in this day and age. As we’re all attached to digital platforms, I think the art of reading, I would hate for that to be lost on anyone. Do you have a favorite book or podcast that has positively impacted your approach to work or life?

GW: OK, yeah. So we just talked about reading, so I can’t give you one. I’m going to give you a few and these are books that either I’ve given to people the most or I’ve marked up the most. I like the old school book in a pen. So really quick, from a personal perspective, a book called The Slight Edge, very simple concept, which is every little decision you make can be a good or bad decision at that moment in time, and you will not feel the implication, the consequence, or the benefit from it immediately. Over a sustained period of time, those little small decisions that are inconsequential are very consequential. So it’s really, you’re never really traveling flat. You’re making a bunch of decisions each day that are either going to point you in an upward trajectory or a downward one. It’s really compounding, simple compounding with simple decisions that are very effective over the fullness of time. So that would be one. A leadership book I love is called Multipliers, fascinating book. Am I like that type of leadership or this type of leadership? The premise of that book really is don’t try to be the smartest person in the room, really try to develop leaders and make people be the most that they can be. So that was a great book. You may be familiar with Trailblazers by Benioff of Salesforce, pretty exciting book on what corporations are capable of, what they can do and then on a hospitality front, someone gave me this book recently, Unreasonable Hospitality. I don’t know if you’ve read that.

DA: I read it not too long ago. I’m a huge fan. Will Godera is brilliant. Great read, great book.

GW: What they think of, it’s a fascinating book and it’s mind-blowing and it really makes you think about the scale of opportunity we have within our business, that’s for sure. So those would be a few books that come to mind. Podcasts, I typically are just for fun as opposed to education to me.

DA: Yeah. Well, picking up on our discussion on hospitality, the hot dog story in Will Godera’s book is a must read. So we won’t talk about that today, but I think you’ll agree that that’s an incredible gesture of hospitality that costs $2 and we’ll let our listeners try to look that up and find that out for themselves. Name one way in which technology has improved how you live or work.

GW: A company like Uber or Uber, just that platform. Like for me, I love it because it’s become almost, it’s like a logistical extension for an active family and I think about the way my family has used that in times of need with complete comfort, security, visibility, transparency, no friction. It’s a remarkable organization platform when you compare it to the traditional taxi business. So we’ve used it a lot. It’s helped us a lot.

DA: Yep. I agree wholeheartedly and it’s like having a personal driver whenever you need it. I think it’s brilliant as well and I think it has that huge impact. I’ve moved into the city recently. I don’t have a car and in addition to public transit, Uber definitely does the trick. As commercial real estate continues to evolve, and we did touch on this, but I’m just curious, just emphasizing what skills do you think are going to become more sought after for building operators? What are they going to be looking for that people can do or skills that they might have that perhaps historically the industry didn’t really put a lot of emphasis on? We touched obviously on hospitality, but any other thoughts?

GW: Well, yeah. I mean, I think about old cars and new cars and the old car mechanic versus the new car. There’s a lot of technology there. So a technological savviness and an understanding of that combined with the hospitality that you just referenced. I mean, I think those are two things that collectively are very potent and necessary and if you think about all the stock of buildings, a lot of them are very dated, but the infrastructure and the bones within them only last so long and so there’s a natural constant upgrading of systems and software and that requires new levels of understanding of how to optimize and make things work great.

DA: Yep. Great insight. If you were not doing what you’re doing right now, and you’ve had your mind set on real estate from a very young age, but if the world was a bit of a fantasy for you, what would you do instead?

GW: You know what I would do? I would, my wife, a step back for my career many years ago and for our family and so I would support her. She has a prosperous thing going and I would support her and her career as she did for me.

DA: I love that. That’s awesome. That’s really nice. I hope she’ll listen to the episode and hear that. Listen, Glenn, thank you so much for joining me today on the program. I really enjoyed our conversation. Getting to know you a bit better and I look forward to continued conversation and hopefully the opportunity to collaborate. I think a lot of things we think about that are very similar and I appreciated you spending time today and sharing your thoughts and insights with our listeners.

GW: It was a pleasure to be here, David. Thank you so much for having me. 

DA: Amazing. We’ll see you again soon.

GW: Thanks. Bye-bye. 

DA: That’s a wrap on today’s episode of 10. I want to thank Glenn for joining me on the program. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review. It helps others find the show. Thank you for listening and until next time, I wish you all continued success in building community where you work and live.