MG: Yeah, definitely not a direct line, probably a little bit meandering, but nonetheless, here I am. I started my career off in commercial real estate as a broker here in Boston for JLL. For your listeners who may or may not know about JLL, it’s one of the largest commercial real estate services firms in the world. But my job was essentially navigating, figuring out how to convince tenants and landlords in the commercial space to hire me as their agent for negotiating their leases or, you know, sometimes a building purchase or disposition or something like that. So I started off as a financial analyst and tried to understand the numbers with respect to understanding, you know, how leases get put together. And then I transitioned into becoming a commissioned broker where, you know, I was tasked with finding business and executing that business. And I did that for about 10 years. So I rose up through the ranks, if you will, and got my own book of business and started managing larger and larger clients. And I’d say about 10 years into it, the time I was in my career started coinciding with this nascent prop tech space. Right. So, you know, I had always been a little bit, I don’t know, zagging when people were zigging in terms of using tech at work. I was always trying out new things, kind of dissatisfied with the tools that were provided to me by the big corporate mothership and just got really into how startups could potentially be changing or disrupting the way things get done in commercial real estate. And it was probably around like 2012, 2013 that VC money started really flooding into the space. And I had been tinkering around with some side projects on my own while I still had a day job as a broker. And I got introduced to the guys at VTS and quickly realized that they were onto something and said, well, if there’s something that is in my domain expertise that is now well funded and has some room to grow, this is it. So I decided to say goodbye to my commercial real estate career and jump into commercial real estate tech. And that was awesome because I joined right when they raised their Series A financing. We were a tiny company, 10 people, something like that. We grew to hundreds of people by the time I left. And we were solving a problem as predominantly for commercial landlords, right? So the centralization of the leasing pipeline, the asset management experience, all of that work that had previously just been done manually in spreadsheets on phone calls and legal pads was now in one system for the largest real estate owners on earth using it. So that was really cool to see that rapid adoption curve. But the whole time I was working there, I couldn’t help notice the parallels between that workflow and how commercial tenants experience managing their portfolios and their lease transactions and their negotiations. So it just kind of got that entrepreneurial itch while I was about four years into working at VTS and just started kind of doing some discovery on it and found out that, yeah, there is a pain point to be solved here. And then just started really just talking to customers, trying to figure out how I can validate my thesis on the business. And we landed our first customer before we left our jobs. And that was kind of the impetus to say, OK, let’s go out and raise a little bit of money and try to create a company here. That was about 2018. So seven years ago.

DA: Right. Very cool. Well, so tell me about more than share more about the current company. Let’s understand that as we move forward.

MG: Yeah. So we founded Occupier, I guess you could say, in the garage in about 2017. But we went full time into it in August of 2018. And our business is lease management software for commercial tenants. It’s evolved over the years. It looks a lot different than what we thought it was going to be when we first started it. But essentially, we provide a centralized workflow platform for businesses in retail and health care, in restaurant, in office, industrial, to manage their multi-location portfolios from the transaction all the way through the closing out of their lease accounting books on their balance sheet. So when we first started the company, we had this broker DNA and we had just come from VTS where we were managing kind of like deal flow for landlords. So the first product we released was a transaction management module for commercial tenants, which basically allowed the company that’s growing their footprint or managing a large footprint to create like a virtual deal room for every lease negotiation they were doing and invite their broker in, invite any other service providers in, and then kind of just move the deal from kind of idea all the way through lease execution. But we quickly learned when we got into the market that there was this existing software category of lease administration software. The players in the space were old. They’d been there forever. They hadn’t really innovated. So we introduced a lease admin product that would feed right off the transaction management product. And that started kind of gaining rapid adoption, not only from customers that were like dissatisfied with their current solution, but also from just spreadsheet native businesses. Like it was still crazy to me how many companies out there are buying 200 locations and managing it in a spreadsheet or like an air table or something like that. So then COVID hit and we were kind of in the middle of this existential crisis, like every other prop tech company, like, oh my God, is real estate dead? Is our business dead? Like, how are we going to survive? But ironically, kind of the disruption that COVID caused for businesses forced them to try to really understand what their real estate footprints were, because they suddenly had to deal with all of these local regulations and can I still open doors in my restaurants or am I entitled to something from my landlord, blah, blah, blah. All of those things, our answers are hidden in the lease documents. So all of a sudden they needed to quickly understand their entire portfolio. So we actually saw a lot of rapid adoption during COVID, specifically in the retail and restaurant space. And that kind of coincided with the introduction of ASC 842 and IFRS 16 leasing standards that had already been adopted by publicly traded companies. Soon that adoption date was coming for privately held businesses as well. So we saw that window as a way to basically be forced into developing lease accounting software on top of our lease admin software, which we successfully did and launched that into the market, probably call it like right around 2020, end of 2021, 2022, when we were catching the tail end of that lease accounting software wave. And zooming out, now we have this three kind of prong product where you’re managing the real estate decisions, you’re managing the portfolio and all the payments, the dates, the dollars associated with it, and then creating the checkbox, if you will, for compliance with the lease accounting functionality. So that’s what the product is today. And what we try to do is like stitch those three products together as much as possible with task management workflows, flexible reporting, all the things that you would expect out of like a best in class SaaS platform. And we’ve recently raised a little bit of money to kind of help us kind of grow to the next phase, which might be introducing more products, more modules to our customers as we kind of continue to gather their pain points.

DA: Right. Well, congratulations on the journey thus far. It’s always nice. I mean, most of my guests are hardcore commercial real estate owner operators. So it’s great to have a fellow PropTech founder on the call. And I’m looking forward to the conversation. Also, you sort of bringing that lens, you know, the sort of some of our discussion through that lens and sort of what you’re seeing, given the nature of your client base. So I’m happy to tap into both your commercial real estate experience and expertise, but also as a founder and as a solution provider to commercial real estate. I’m just curious, you know, before we move on from your position role, you know, not everybody, particularly transitioning from, you know, working in commercial real estate to becoming a founder of a technology company, you know, successfully navigates that chasm. So why do you think you are positioned for success? What has enabled you to make that move and to, you know, to be in a place now where your company is growing, you’re raising money and hopefully the future looks bright?

MG: Yeah, I’d like to say, I don’t know, something you could, you know, compare me to Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg or something like that. But I don’t think those are reasons why I would still be alive here in this business. I do think commercial real estate is such just like a, it’s kind of esoteric to people that aren’t in it so that my 10 years of practitioner experience really informed, like the way I thought about building the product. And that was clearly resonated with the earliest customers we talked to, because you could sit across from the table and say, I know exactly what you’re dealing with right now. Like, tell me how much pain that causes for you, whether that’s financially or, you know, emotionally or whatever. So I think part of it is like I picked a domain that I really knew cold and therefore the margin of error in terms of like experimentation and testing things out was smaller. Not to say anything was certain from the beginning. But I think also just I think to be a founder, you just need to be able to block out a lot of noise and know that you’re on the right path. And sometimes you might make some mistakes, sometimes you might get some wins. But as long as you can kind of stay even with the ability to put blinders on and move forward without ignoring anything, just it’s not rocket science. Like you just need to work hard. You need to ask the right questions. You need to surround yourself with good people and know that like, look, you came into this thing because you believe there was a big business opportunity and that still remains. So like, how do you make sure that you’re constantly moving forward day to day? I think a lot of it is your personal tolerance for risk. And frankly, a lot of like being able to deal with living in uncertainty, right? As you know, David, every day you’ve got a new challenge. A hundred percent. So it’s definitely like when I was a broker, you’re living with a different type of uncertainty, which is like, how much money am I going to make this year? Is my commission pipeline as big as it was last year or growing? When you’re a founder, it’s more like, is this whole thing going to crater this week or are we really on to something here? So it’s a little bit of a different sense of urgency and uncertainty, but I think that’s kind of like what fuels you to make sure you’re still viable and going ahead.

DA: Right. Your earlier comment really resonated where you talked about the fact that you’d lived the pain and you’ve had the experience and you were able to sit across the table from others and convey a story to them that would resonate with them. And I remember the early days attending some of the prop tech conferences that were emerging, particularly Cretech in the early days. And the number one issue that often the commercial estate expert panel would be articulating is that half the people pitching into them didn’t understand the business at all. And like you, I came from commercial real estate and spent the bulk of my career servicing the industry and living the problem. And then looking to technology as a way to help solve for it. So I think that makes a ton of sense. I think that more and more operators that do come from the commercial estate background are going to be more successful long-term.

MG: Yeah, I agree.

DA: So today, super interested in the way in which commercial real estate is evolving and how it’s using technology. And we’re obviously very focused on it from an experience perspective, how we can make office a destination of choice, a place where people want to be. We truly think that the industry is really fundamentally shifted and it’s no longer just about space. It’s about where people will feel valued and connected and supported. I’m just curious, through your lens, again, as now an operator, what are you seeing, particularly representing those that have office space, but also in terms of how you’re using technology to enable a better experience? So certainly in the space that we’re passionate about as office, but also just any other sort of insight that you have being a provider as well.

MG: Yeah. If we kind of broke that into two pieces, I don’t know what I don’t know yet in terms of this endless rationalization of the office. I personally enjoy going to an office every day, mainly because it separates my home life from my work life. And I feel like I’m much more balanced when I do that and I can be more focused in the office. I also like seeing my colleagues. However, our company is largely remote. We have this office here in Boston where we have our sales team, but everybody else is zooming in every day. And so while that doesn’t tie us to a huge leasehold expenditure, it also forces you to figure out ways to be collaborative outside of being in person. Now, we’re a small company, so I’m obviously not indicative of the trends that are happening in the larger market. But it’s really hard to argue against remote work because if you can find the right people and they can be successful and hit their metrics and do their job, then why do you need an office? Now, on the other hand, it’s kind of like, well, if you have scale and you’re a large enough company and you want there to be kind of like a touchstone culturally, then you need an office. And that doesn’t mean everybody needs to come in every day, but I think the nature of the office has changed. It’s not like you’re going to the cube farm anymore and you have to sit there from nine to five for five days a week. Maybe people are looking at it as a way to engage the employee with the business, less of being like, this is where your key card gets you in, go do your work.

DA: It’s not one or the other anymore. And it’s unique to every company. It’s unique to every stage of company. And you as a technology company at this particular stage, you’ve landed on a formula that perhaps is working today, but two, three, five years from now, again, that model might change. So we take the view that we believe people should work from anywhere or can work from anywhere and that the opportunity, though, for offices to just play a different role, a role where people come together, perhaps they collaborate, perhaps they socialize, opportunity for mentorship and leadership. So the purpose has changed. The need is different. And we don’t believe it’s one or the other. We really believe that we’re in an ecosystem today where there are many different workplaces and spaces to be in. And so we’re excited about that. And we’re excited about how our technology can be used, certainly for the office world to be used as a draw to bring people back and find ways to deliver a better experience. But it doesn’t mean that we don’t have to consider the fact that people are continuing to work from everywhere.

MG: Yeah, I think there’s also a demographic conversation to be had as well. I think you have native people who are just probably went to college and COVID and didn’t go to classroom. So they’re just used to signing onto their computer and to do their work. But I don’t know, maybe I might sound like a boomer. But some of the most fun times I’ve had in my career was like going to work and making friends and going out for drinks afterwards and mixing it up that way, which seems to be less of an emphasis on that in terms of like the early stages of your career, where I think you should get out there and try to meet as many people as possible. And that doesn’t always have to happen in the office. It could happen in the neighborhood around your office or going to industry events or company happy hours, things that were always there, but now they’re just being emphasized more because it’s important to attract people. I would never say that I got attracted to going to work by the office itself, as the people that you were working with and the problems you were solving with them. And then you can look at a different demographic of call it like me, I’m a middle-aged parent. But sometimes it’s super important for me to have some flexibility to get to my kids school or get them to practice or something like that. And if I’m tied to the office because my boss doesn’t let me leave until 5 or 6 p.m., then it’s going to make my life more difficult. Yeah, it’s more socially acceptable now to be able to leave the office at a certain time because you have a family obligation because you know what, you can always get back online at night and you know you are right. So yeah, I don’t have a statistical or any sort of data point of view on it. I do think that the flight to quality is something that I think makes a lot of sense right now because if you’re not really required to go to an office, why would you want to go to a bad one?

DA: No, I think to that end, there’s no room for bad players or very little room for bad players. And I think the expectation now of spaces and places being better in terms of the experience of the offer is great for the industry. From a technology perspective, both as someone who occupies space, but also representing occupiers, what are you seeing from a customer experience perspective? You know, what’s working to help enhance the experience that people have in buildings or interacting with buildings or even to your technology, how they’re using your platform to manage their relationship, their legal relationship with the building? What do you think is working? What perhaps isn’t or doesn’t even yet exist?

MG: Yeah, I think there’s like, what’s working is like table stakes functionality that people expect in their software at work. And that’s like, it should be easy to log in. It should be easy to use, navigate and be collaborative. I think those are some of the things that maybe very ambitious entrepreneurs that get into PropTech overlook. They’re trying to create the shiny new object that’s going to change the industry. And it’s like, you know, a lot of people just need to log into something that makes sense for the way they need to do their work. And we emphasize usability, ease of onboarding, you know, just it should be like the iPhone, right? You should open up out of the box, turn it on, you know how it works. I think those are like table stakes today. What is not working is, you know, software that was developed before the last 10 years, and it still persists in our industry. I think the glacial pace by which people are adopting new technology and commercial real estate isn’t necessarily because the technology stinks. I think it’s just the business itself hasn’t reached a point where people are like comfortable just like sharing their data or being, you know, forward thinking with how technology can help solve their problems. Now, I think that’s going to be extremely accelerated with the use of AI. You know, I will say that it seems like every other week there’s another Y Combinator company that’s using LLMs to break down legal documents in the real estate space. Are those going to be the ones that carry the industry out of the old way into the new way? Maybe. But I will say from demand from our customer base, in terms of AI native features, it’s like, it’s real, it’s there. People are using chat GPT on their own to figure things out. Like that is eventually going to make its way into every SaaS application, like just the rote kind of manual tasks that you have to do in software today, such as like, oh, I need to pull this report. Like that’s going to take me seven clicks. I need to check my filters and make sure the data is right. Whereas, you know, maybe a world exists where there’s an agent that’s doing that in the background for you and all you’re doing is prompting it. So I think software is just going to evolve in the real estate space. I think like there’s been this misnomer that every CRE tech company needs to be an industry disruptor. Like, I don’t, I don’t think that’s where software is going to go.

DA: We’re also not in an industry that loves disruption. We’re in an industry that I think is looking for efficiency. They’re looking for more ways to drive more margin. They’re looking for more ways to create a better experience. But even that term alone in our industry, you know, maybe in some industries, there’s a greater appetite for it. But, you know, our industry is a pretty conservative industry. So when they hear that term, they actually, I think, get scared first.

MG: Yeah, I agree.

DA: Right. So listen, I think we can both agree. We already have acknowledged that the industry is just going through such a period of evolution, reinvention. We’ll say that instead of disruption. If budget and resources were not an issue for you, if I was to wave my magic wand and give you a pot of gold that enabled you to do something or create something or undertake something new for your business to position your business for success in the next three to five years, any different ideas or approaches or avenues you’d want to pursue?

MG: I’m not giving away the secret sauce here. Yeah, no, I wish I could say that I had some sort of like, you know, if there was a magic wand to be waved, we would have tried to wave it by now. But I think it’s really about what you just said, which is like focusing on customer outcomes and how those can either drive a bottom line, reduce manual effort, just add value to the customer’s work. Because at the end of the day, we’re a software company that sells subscription to our platform for money, and that money is meant to make their job easier, better, more efficient, more cost effective. And so the more things we can do in their value chain, in their workflow to create value is what I would use money for. I wouldn’t try to reinvent something or go build data centers for AI processing or anything like that. I would try to just focus on my customer. So like I said, we have transaction management, lease admin, lease accounting. There are so many other problems that occupiers face just with the day to day operations of a single site, much less a large portfolio. So I would direct all of my resources towards figuring out what are the most exciting things that they would ask us for that we could totally justify an ROI of if we’re spending this R&D. And I think you’d eventually start continuing to uncover more and more problems. And that’s when things get interesting. You could amass amazing sets of data that you could start to use for insights, and you can use AI on top of that. So I think we’re just kind of pulling at the ball of yarn right now, and we don’t know how long it is. Right, right. Interesting.

DA: Let’s take a short commercial break. Matt, we’ll be right back. Sounds good.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

DA: And I’d like to welcome back to the show, Matt Jafoum, co-founder and CEO of Occupier. Again, thank you so much for being with me today. The next question is a little bit more about sort of what we’re super passionate about. And again, given your background in commercial real estate and given the occupiers that you are involved with, I’d love to just get your perspective, any thoughts you have. You know, we really believe that occupants are continuing to voice the importance all in and around the experiences that they’re consuming in commercial real estate. And we’re seeing office behave more like the hotel industry and the restaurant industry trying to up the level of hospitality. You mentioned earlier this notion of the flight to quality. We agree. However, we don’t think that flight to quality is just reserved for either brand new builds or class A. We think that this flight to quality can actually be achieved and delivered with any building, provided there’s a commitment to offer that unparalleled experience and that they can use technology to sort of equalize, maybe make up for some of what they don’t have, but use tech and service as a way to really, again, give that class A offering and deliver on that flight to quality. Just want to get your reaction to that. What are you seeing, if anything? Again, given the clients that you’re interacting with, are you hearing anything in and around that idea?

MG: Yeah, I think our office clientele has a similar kind of thesis as you, which is, it’s not the office anymore, it’s the workplace. The workplace encompasses more than it used to. It used to just be the four walls of the office, and that’s what employee experience was. Now it’s, to our conversation earlier, you might come into the office two days a week, but work from home or remote three days a week. How do you blend the two lives? How do you make it so that it’s as easy for you to get online at home as it is in the office? How do you make it so that it’s as easy for you to get your favorite breakfast sandwich in your neighborhood as it is when you go to the office? I think focusing on that daily life of the office user is where the best companies are going to win. It’s always a war for talent, especially in the office space world. You’re either a tech company, you’re a law firm, you’re an investment company, you’re a real estate company. You’re always trying to create an environment that people want to come work at and have that competitive edge. I don’t know as much about your world as mine, obviously, and what tech you guys are applying to this. I would imagine it really starts with the employee engagement. I know that there are applications that are meant to tether the employee experience to the building or to the space. What are some of those things that are resonating with your users? Are they, oh, I can book my yoga class on this app? Or is it, oh, I know every time I come into this building, I can get in very easily with a QR code? What are the easy wins there?

DA: There are a lot of them. I think to your point earlier, as you said, the buildings are not silos. They’re not four walls. We think a lot about that. When we first got into the business, the one thing we did not want to be is another building app provider. We didn’t think buildings needed apps and people didn’t really need apps. People needed to be part of a platform. That platform ultimately represented a community. The building was a member of that community, but so too were local businesses. So too now is your home. So too is maybe the patio or the deck at your cottage. It’s about connecting all of these places. It’s not one or the other. You could be moving between these places and spaces, not only during the course of a week, but even during the course of a day. You could spend half the day in the office and half the day at a local cafe or a coworking space. We think a lot about just how to personalize that experience and give people more of what they ultimately need. To your point, access in the building, ordering food at lunch, attending a yoga class, maybe joining into a tenant appreciation barbecue. There’s a lot that we’ve got to do, which creates a lot of opportunity as well. So that’s what gets us excited, obviously, is that it’s not one thing anymore.

MG: Yeah. And who is typically making the decisions on how to implement and deploy what you guys provide? Is it asset manager?

DA: Yeah, it’s often both. We generally are talking to both building owner, asset manager, as well as property manager. We’re trying to talk more to the ownership groups and really convey our unique perspective on how we think tenant experience or customer experience should be viewed as an extension of your brand and not just, again, an app checkbox. I implemented a building app. And we think there’s an opportunity to really bring that brand ownership to life very much at the customer level. And the customer today is every person in your building. Used to be the customer was the person that signed the lease. Now it’s literally everybody that walks in and out of your building. So it continues to change and evolve. We both bring a lot of interesting backgrounds to what we do. And I’ve shared a little bit about what we think about a lot, but I’m just curious from a technology perspective, what do you think is critically important beyond what we’ve already discussed? There’s the idea of ESG being a big factor in commercial real estate, IoT connecting to all the different sensors within buildings. We’re all measuring ROI. We’re all looking at opportunities to drive more efficiency. What topic have I not even mentioned that you’re thinking about or you think is super important?

MG: Um, making money. Given the past decade I’ve been in PropTech, I’ve seen so many companies fail in this space. And as much as you want to talk about the industry and be a thought leader and espouse the views that you might have on what is important to the commercial real estate space, you still just need to be able to sell software. And how do you do that in this world where the entire supply chain of your business is just rapidly changing? Whether that’s marketing automation, whether that’s AI-driven code tools. I guess what I’m saying is there’s as much pressure now to validate your business model and provide value to the customer as there is trying to figure out how to do it efficiently.

DA: You’ve just raised some new capital, but even on that front, I imagine the conversations you’re having with investors, as are we, has changed. And it’s not growth at all costs. And to your point, how do you become a successful, profitable, scalable business? I think every PropTech firm needs to be thinking about that. And to that end, really every technology company needs to be thinking more along those terms.

MG: I think we’re in the beginning stages of this massive dislocation of how capital is used to grow companies. Obviously, you see the high end with open AI and these massive funding rounds, but they’re chasing a huge shift in how technology is using. But when that starts trickling down into startups, do you need a $5 million seed round to get a product to market anymore? No. Do you need a 10-person sales team in order to acquire your first 100 customers? No. So there are parts of this industry, whether you want to call it the tech industry or the VC ecosystem, that are going to be changed forever. Now, everything always comes in cycles, but I haven’t been alive through a rapid evolution of software and technology than we’re experiencing right now. So I just think that the fact that we could take every customer and prospect interaction, a transcript from all those calls and feed them through an algorithm that tells us the most important things within like five minutes allows you to just cut a lot of ambiguity out of what you’re doing, get to the point a lot faster, and then iterate on these things. So I think there’s just a lot of experimentation that’s going to happen over the next few years to figure out, like, okay, you go on LinkedIn, you’ll see something like, oh, this founder just sold his company for a billion dollars after hiring three people because he did it all with AI. Now, granted, those are edge cases, and I wonder how much of it is true, but at the same time, it’s like the traditional way of building a SaaS business, I think, is something that’s in the past.

DA: Yep. Yep. It’s going to continue to evolve. And you and I have probably now lived through enough to be able to comment on what it was like, what it had been, and what it’s going to be like in the future. Our closing speed round, Matt, is an opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. So some very pointed questions. Looking back, what’s one piece of advice that you wish someone had given you when you first started out?

MG: Do it sooner.

DA: I.e. the shift to entrepreneurship?

MG: Yeah.

DA: Yeah? Cool. Is there a favorite book or podcast that has positively affected your approach to work and life?

MG: I’m reading a book right now called Barbarian Days. It’s about Bill Finnegan. He’s a surfer, and it’s just about his journey of traveling the world with zero purpose, other than to find the best waves. And I think there’s something in there that is kind of soul-crushing, but also inspiring.

DA: Right. To have the luxury of being on that journey without the immediate pressure, right?

MG: Yeah. And then I’m a big fan of Scott Galloway’s podcast, Prof G, Prof G Markets, just quick hits every day of what’s going on in the world, why this is important. Try not to always have my headphones in, but when I do, I’m listening to one of those.

DA: Yep cool. One way in which technology has improved how you live or work, you personally?

MG: I’m just being able to turn the AC on my car on before I get in it.

DA: Okay. All right. Listen, commercial real estate is continuing to evolve. I believe that there are going to be new skills required within the industry, skills that typically were not hired for in the past. Any thoughts on what that might look like, or what skills you think commercial estate owner and operators are going to be looking for in the future?

MG: Yeah. I think if I were an owner of a real estate investment company and I had a hundred units of multifamily or office or whatever, I would make sure that a big part of the job description for an entry-level hire is how fluent you are with technology. I think the industry’s typically been set up as you come in, you’re an analyst, you work in the spreadsheets, you get your way out of the spreadsheets, and then you can deal with people, and then you’re dealing with investors and then whatever. I think there’s so much more you can do with technology today that if you’re not getting fluent on that before you enter an industry, you’re going to be beat out.

DA: Everybody’s got to be wearing that hat to some degree. If you were not doing what you’re doing right now, what would you be doing instead?

MG: Probably coaching football, something where I can be part of a team, but mentor some young men and just have a good time doing it. Very good.

DA: Matt, thank you so much for joining me on the program today. I really appreciate your time, really appreciate the opportunity to get to know you better, your journey to commercial real estate and entrepreneurship, and as a fellow PropTech founder, I love to connect, love to hear the story, and I know the grind. Wishing you continued success, and I hope that we can continue the conversation.

MG: All right. Thanks, David. Appreciate you having me on.

DA: Take care now.

DA: That’s a wrap on today’s episode of 10. I want to thank Matt for joining me on the program. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review. It helps others find the show. Thanks for listening, and until next time, I wish you all continued success in building community where you work and live.