YB: That’s a great question.

DA: It’s my favorite question. I love to get to know people through this question.

YB: It’s a great question, because honestly, I really want to give you an answer where I say it’s in my background. I studied whatever career path I wanted beyond, and that took me down the trajectory of corporate real estate. But honestly, it started because pure luck, and I think it’s because of my background. I did landscape architecture, and then I did my master’s in strategic design and innovation and then it’s just a pure fascination of how or for how physical spaces shape human experiences and eventually, that kind of led me into workplace experience specifically, and more so into experience strategy as a whole, and what and how it can affect or how it can change business trajectory or business outcomes as a whole. So starting in space and occupancy planning at a very early age, I had a better understanding of building operations and what the tenant needs might be or what we like to say the user needs, right? Because the employees or the tenants or whoever is walking into a building is our user and is our customer. Over time, I transitioned into the role more focused on strategy, innovation, particularly in workplace experience, as I mentioned and this evolution has allowed me to kind of witness firsthand the shifting dynamics and how people use office spaces, how they used to use them, how they use them today, and what their expectations are from the built environment as a whole.

DA: Right. Well, you introduced so many concepts and so many different choice of words in terms of how you describe that. It’s so in sync with all that we’re thinking, and I think this is going to be an amazing conversation. So in terms of, you know, I understand how you landed in this opportunity, but why do you think you were so uniquely suited? What skills, what mentors, what colleagues, what books, what part of your education do you think contributed to you finding this unique place within the commercial real estate industry?

YB: It’s honestly, it’s I think everybody brings a uniqueness to whatever role they play and in this domain specifically, you can’t be from a certain background. Of course, you see people transitioning from architecture or interior design into workplace or into designing how the physical space or the built environment should be in terms of experiences. But I think for me specifically, and why I think I’m suitable for this role, is a combination of diverse environments or diverse backgrounds that I come from and diverse experiences. Like I mentioned, my architecture background really taught me how to be forward thinking and put myself in the user’s shoes. So I’m sure you’ve heard of the terminology form follows function. That was a big thing and you always have to keep that in mind. So having that mindset kind of brought me forth into why I would want to do strategic design and not just design as a whole and when I say strategic design, it’s not only strategic design of spaces, it’s really strategic design thinking and being able to create experiences within a space that would be suitable for whatever the usability or the business functionality is going to be. I think because my background really spans across traditional real estate, some technology integration and human centered design, I can approach the challenges that we do face within this industry from multiple angles, I want to say and then, of course, adaptability and strategic thinking are crucial. We have to be very agile. I think in this industry, we’ve seen that a lot of changes have happened. You now have a pre-COVID, post-COVID era and you now have a new era coming about as well. Right. As for mentors, books, I do have a mentor. She was my boss’s boss’s boss when I first joined, when I first started my professional career and she’s amazing. I we speak on at least we speak on a monthly basis. At least we try to connect as often as possible. She has absolutely helped shaped my approach to specific things in the industry. She’s opened my eyes to a lot of new things as well within the domain and I think it’s I personally think it’s it does a person wonders to have a mentor in the same space. Or even if it’s someone that you can just bounce ideas off of.

DA: For sure.

YB: In terms of books, I think there’s there are a couple of books, but there’s one book that comes to mind. Sorry, just thinking off the top of my mind right now. It is the Change by Design by Tim Brown. It really deepened my appreciation for design thinking in solving complex problems and of course, among so many others, it’s it’s it’s influenced my approach to innovating within the corporate real estate space.

DA: Amazing. Well, I think that all of that is going to contribute to a really interesting conversation today. You know, I think you’ve already acknowledged all the change that’s going on in our industry and today I’m just really interested in understanding and discussing how commercial real estate is continuing to evolve. Ultimately to help meet people’s needs and people’s needs are changing so dramatically and then we also have the influence of technology and how that’s now an opportunity to enhance customer experience and make what we call places, destinations of choice.

YB: Yes.

DA: I think we can agree that commercial real estate, the purpose has fundamentally changed. It’s no longer just about space. It’s really about how people feel and what they can do in the space. Right and the experience that they come away with. So and I think that the real winners in the industry are going to be those that really embrace this transformation and then ultimately sort of merge this whole notion of experience and I think what you mentioned earlier, this workplace design and functionality. So I would love to get your perspective on what you’re seeing right now, in particular to office commercial real estate. You know, how are we adapting to this transformation?

YB: You’re David, you’re absolutely right. I mean, there’s been a fundamental shift within how we approach the office’s core purpose. Right and to your point, it’s now something that we call destination workplaces. Right. It’s making sure that the spaces that employees are going into offer the experiences and benefits that can no longer be replicated at home. Because taking it back to kind of during COVID, a lot of us became very comfortable working from our homes and at home. Right. So wherever you go, no one you’re not going to feel the way that you’re meant to feel at home. It’s a different level of comfort. So we are now trying to create, not replicate the benefits that you get at home, but maybe enhance the experiences that you get within the spaces, the workspaces that you’re going to. Kind of making sure that employees are happy or are willing to go out of their way to go into their workspaces and of course, this includes state of the art collaboration areas, absolutely incorporating health and wellness, health and well-being, sorry, initiatives within HR policies that we’re seeing, as well as wellness facilities and technologies that really seamlessly blend the digital and the physical experiences together. It’s really the decisions that are being made within real estate, or I would say real estate industry as a whole, are increasingly influenced by how well a space can support an organization’s culture, foster innovation, attract and retain talent as well. Because you see, we’ve really shifted. There’s multiple generations in the workplace today and every generation kind of has their own specific needs or expectations when it comes to being in the space. So, yes, we are moving away from the traditional metrics of cost per square foot to a certain degree. That’s still very important, right? If you speak to any CFO, they’ll tell you it’s extremely important to us. We are moving away from that a bit and more towards holistic measures that would consider the space’s impact on an employee’s satisfaction, productivity and overall business outcome perspective.

DA: What’s really fascinating, I should have mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, is that you’re located in Dubai and your work takes you across the Middle East.

YB: It does, yes.

DA: Everything you’ve just said, you could be sitting in my chair here in Toronto, in Canada, and I think it would still be relevant. So I think what’s fascinating is that the issues and challenges of the industry are universally true across all geographies. Yes and so certainly anything particular to your, you know, the world that you live in, I’m just fascinated to hear and to learn. But it’s just interesting to note that, you know, I think we’re all seeing the same realities no matter where we are.

YB: We absolutely are. I mean, of course, some cultural perspectives do come into play when you’re looking at corporate real estate and the dynamic or the shift in the economies around us do come into play, of course, especially if you’re looking at a market like the KSA market, for example. The progress that’s been taking place is drastic pre- and post-COVID. So you do see these changes a lot. However, everybody within this space, they’re not playing catch up, right? They want to be in the here and in the now, and they want to make sure that every experience that they have and the purpose of the spaces that they’re creating are adaptable and they can flex to meet those ever-changing needs.

DA: Right. You talked about, you know, the home, you talked about not necessarily being able to completely replicate the home and office. But I like to say that and what I’m seeing is that homes are becoming a little more office-like and offices are becoming a little more home-like. That’s very true. Those boundaries are blurring and there are certain, you know, feelings and amenities and experiences that you actually want in both places.

YB: That’s 100% true. I mean, I was speaking to one of my colleagues the other day in UK just to kind of bring all of that dynamic together and I was saying it’s more of work-life integration is what we’re looking at these days. It’s no longer work-life balance. Work-life balance means you’re working from, you’re working a 9 to 5. You’re able to start working at 9 a.m. sharp, close the laptop or shut your brain off from work at 5 p.m. sharp. Work-life integration offers a bit more flexibility to the employees and making sure that some of their needs are met. For example, a mother that needs to go pick up her children from school at 3 p.m. Right. Work-life integration does give her that flexibility. It’s not always the best case scenario for a lot of people. However, we have seen that shift taking place, especially in the cultural mindsets of managers.

DA: I love that language and I just think it’s so relevant and so appropriate. I don’t think we should be confined by those old parameters, that bookend of 9 to 5 and you’re right, if I at 3 o’clock need to go for an appointment, my day didn’t necessarily end at 5 because I might get back to my desk either at home or office and then I might work for another hour or two after that, but I’ve been able to accomplish something on a personal level during the course of that work day and I think that’s what we all learned during COVID, that we could do that effectively and balance those priorities and I think that’s a good outcome, a positive outcome.

YB: Absolutely. I mean, listen, I’m not saying that everybody has shifted towards this mindset. There’s still a lot of work to be done, culturally speaking, within organizations or within specific teams or management experiences. However, there is this shift and we see it, I think, across the globe. It’s not just a very specific geographical perspective.

DA: Agreed, agreed. You know, moving forward, I think people in buildings are going to expect this sort of one-stop, seamless and what we call a personalized digital experience. So they want to be able to connect to their property and experience all that it has to offer. It needs to empower this connectedness, this sense of community, foster their own personal productivity and just what we like, you know, just make it easier, easier and better where people are. So, you know, we think customer experience is that new differentiator. That is what will really, that’s the business that building operators are now in and also the occupier, the employer needs to think more about the experience they offer their employees more so than ever before. So what technology do you think we could be implementing to deliver a better customer experience? What’s working? What’s not working? Maybe what’s missing?

YB: That’s a great question. I have to think about it for a minute. I think, I mean, you’re spot on about the need for a seamless, seamless personalized digital as well as physical experience when it comes to, when it comes to buildings specifically or workplaces and you’ll see holistically more buildings are trying to adapt and to cater for or to cater amenities that are holistic. So you’ll find in one building there are offices, but there’s a nursery, there’s a grocery store. There are there’s a small clinic for your health and well-being and I think some of the areas that I believe building technology can significantly enhance, which is not to say we have not made massive strides in those regards. But it’s to say that there still are some elements that we can definitely work on to improve. I want to say it’s personalization and with personalization, I think this AI is going to be playing a big role in that and I know a lot of people say AI, and it’s kind of a trend or a buzzword that people are going about these days with not a lot of in-depth knowledge about it and I’m not going to sit here and say I have all the in-depth knowledge about AI, but I do believe that AI will be playing a huge role in personalized experiences.

Implementing some of the AI-driven systems that can learn individual preferences and adjust environmental settings to that, like lighting, temperature, the way people move around a space, I think is going to be something that we’ll see a lot of in the future. I think we already started seeing some frictionless access to buildings or just experiences that just make it better using either biometrics or mobile systems or an app that links to the entire building system. I think that is something we’ve already started seeing and it really eliminates the need for physical key cards that a lot of people start losing as well. So you see that shift. It’s still happening. It’s still taking place. It started, but I think we’re shifting more towards that. I think one big thing that we are seeing in the region specifically are our IoT sensors. IoT sensors have always been in the game. However, I think in the way that we are looking at it now is more predictive maintenance as well as predictive occupancy optimization within a specific office space and making sure that you’re able to predict what the needs are before they become something that is of a headache to a lot of the people that are maintaining the building space as a whole or the office in general, I think is a big thing. However, the biggest shift that I do see in technology are more of the health and wellness integration that’s going to come into space. We have ergonomic furniture right now, but I think the technologies that are going to start monitoring air quality, promote some movement within the space, encouraging some healthier behavior. I think this is all things that we’re going to see, not just as personal wearables at the moment, but as part of the integrated within the space, within the building dynamic in itself and of course, you touched upon it and we cannot forget it. It’s the community engagement platforms. Community is a big thing. Yes, as human beings, we are moving towards more technology driven solutions. However, we should never forget the basic psychological human needs and community and sense of belonging within a space are very, very big.

DA: You covered a lot of ground. You covered all the hot topics. Well done. I agree that AI should not be just seen as a buzzword. It is very relevant and appropriate to the conversations that we’re having, the technology that we’re building and the opportunity to deliver that more personalized experience. You talked about community, you talked about building access, you talked about just so many different aspects and I think it just demonstrates the incredible opportunity for technology to be seen as a value add and a tool to enhance the overall experience and opportunity for people to engage in real estate. So thank you so much for that. You know, along with others, and I clearly I believe you feel the same way, that there’s an incredible opportunity for this reinvention of commercial real estate to continue and just present so much opportunity for our industry. So as you’re thinking about all these different aspects of technology and of experience and workplace design and functionality, if I were to give you a pot of gold, an unlimited budget, an unlimited budget for a particular project or two, what is there something that you’ve been thinking about, something new, something that maybe the industry has not yet thought of that you’d love to undertake, that you’d love to develop, bring to market, that you think could really position commercial real estate for the next three to five years, just as the go-to place to get things done? Any thoughts on that?

YB: That’s a great question. I’ll have to take a minute to think about that, actually. I think there are a couple of things that I think would be, at least from a personal experience point of view, right, and then seeing, of course, how the industry is changing. There are a couple of things. I think building global agile or flex networks for organizations is going to be something that’s big. I don’t think we’ve seen it yet, but I do think this integration, and from what I’ve seen in the region at least, is that our clients really do want to understand what a one or holistic one-for-all approach would be. So our clients’ employees would also benefit from having that kind of network, that network around them across the globe, where they can access it anywhere in the world, right? It would absolutely go beyond the traditional co-working spaces, or not just co-working spaces, but connectivity within the business that we’re able to provide the support no matter where they are in the world. It really empowers a better, high-quality experience for this integration and I think it’s really more of changing the perspective or the reaction to the idea of office buildings just being office buildings and because people now really do value experiences like we’ve touched upon, maybe change that experience up a bit. Make it more of a hotel, more hospitality kind of experience. Make it a place where people can go to escape their reality. Like you said, now when I have a lot of work and I want to concentrate, that’s being done at home. I go to the office to collaborate, to socialize, to do some business development. I do not go to the office just to sit on my desk and kind of work. So having that global network and also making sure that the experiences that people are facing, or the way that you change the experience of an office building, these mixed together kind of can be a new currency within corporate real estate.

DA: I think we’re starting to see that. I think there are some large national global real estate developers that are starting to think of their business not just as silos. That each building in each city represents the totality of the offering and that their network offers an opportunity for people to think about how they can access different workplaces no matter where they are. I think what will be interesting is not all developers have a global footprint and the question is, will we see more partnership, more collaboration between developers to maybe co-create that network and offer that type of experience? Building operators are now seeing their portfolios as brands and that they want their brand to stand for something and represent something. The question, how can regional players maybe take a more global perspective through partnerships? So I think you’ve raised a very interesting point and I’d love to see how that continues to take shape in the years to come.

YB: I think it’s going to look differently in the different regions that we have. But I do think it’s becoming something that our occupants, not just occupants, but the occupants, the tenants as we like to call them, the visitors within a building or within a space, the developers are all starting to look at holistically. It’s become more of let’s create memorable experiences within our spaces so that if somebody goes to the building XYZ in New York, they can still experience the same thing if this building XYZ is open in Dubai, for example. It’s really connecting that or creating this global connectivity when it comes to experiences as well as the networks themselves.

DA: I love that. That’ll be a great segue to our conversation right after our break. Let’s take a short commercial break and we’ll be right back.

YB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

DA: And now I’d like to welcome back to the show Yara Berbari, leading workplace experience within work dynamic consulting across the Middle East for JLL. That’s an impressive title and I’m sure that the work just continues to be incredibly fascinating as you bring your perspective, your experience, your thinking to a very fast and evolving industry. Guest after guest on this podcast have echoed the same sentiment that each and every person who enters the building, and we talked a lot about guests as well, not only the occupier and the occupant, they’re now viewed as our customer, that we no longer just think of the person who signs the lease and that changes the game dramatically, right? It means that every occupant has an incredibly important voice in how they consume experiences across all of these physical places and I think we’re at a moment in time where building owners and operators and occupiers now understand, and you also commented that we need to think more like the hotel industry or restaurant industry or hospitality. Think about how we can inject more hospitality, particularly into office. This should not be new thinking, but it is relatively new and I think it creates an opportunity where all classes of buildings, regardless of how new they are, how shiny they are, how many amenities they have, the notion of hospitality is something that we can inject into every building experience and I think that’s going to create a really more level playing field. So I’d love your perspective on how you’re seeing that unfold, what you think that means for the commercial real estate industry from the person just looking across the spectrum of buildings that you’re connected to. How does hospitality, how does experience, how does that change the game for the business?

YB: So at JLL, we do, we’re more, we’re an integrated business, right? So I’m saying specifically JLL, because of course, I’m with JLL today and we do have a specific hospitality team that works not just for the hospitality industry, but across the board with all of the different teams. We do have a one JLL approach when it comes to the way that we do business and we take a lot of pride in that. However, making sure that we are up to date on all of the different trends and all of the different, not just workplace trends, but corporate real estate trends, as well as just real estate trends as a whole. Because real estate trends are no longer very industry specific. We did have that in the past, yes. But today you see that there’s been a lot of weaving of these experiences, these spaces, these expectations, when we are looking at the spaces, when we are building these experiences and I think one thing, and at least in the region over here, is where more people are leaning more towards going and working from an experience center than going and working from a co-working space. Simply because those experience centers, like I mentioned, we don’t really go for one specific technical skill. These experience centers now take the person or the individual or the customer or your user out of their everyday usual and puts them in a situation that helps them understand their surrounding area a bit better, themselves a bit better and in turn, makes them or makes sure that the outputs that they’re bringing to the business are also multidisciplinary and they do cover multiple perspectives that you’re going to be able to bring into the space themselves. So we’re no longer thinking of, so this client is within the banking sector, this is what we’ve usually done for the banking sector, so let’s just apply that. It’s no longer the case. It’s really looking at diversifying what those experiences can be across the different sectors, creating this larger workplace ecosystem, I want to say, that would lead to multiple experiences within the same space or within the same organization as well.

DA: Right. So you’ve got to cater to different industries, different personalities, needs, different expectations, and ultimately develop these, what you call the experience centers, to meet that diversity. I love that. That’s really a great way to look at it and I think that experience, it’s obviously a big part of our language and how we explain our business. But we’re seeing this word rise up in terms of its importance, in terms of how it’s used within the industry and as opposed to just being a buzzword, I think it’s becoming something incredibly, incredibly meaningful and important and certainly, we think that’s a good thing.

YB: It’s 100% a good thing. It’s a great thing. I mean, you start looking at it and you start looking at the key to creating an environment where people feel supported, feel welcomed and of course, rather than just providing a desk and a chair for them, you’re making sure that whatever needs that they have, you are being able to cater for and for the corporate real estate industry, as I mentioned, this shift really means greater focus on customer excellence, sorry, operational excellence, customer service, the integration of technology, making sure that you’re able to collect data in real time within the integration of technology, to be able to adapt or change the environment that you’ve created for your employees or for the people coming into your space, right? It’s just anyone that is using this environment and having a holistic experience and holistic view of property value.

DA: Yep. You’re a great example of someone that brings such different backgrounds, different perspectives, and certainly different areas of expertise to this world of office and the future of work. So, excuse me, beyond what we’ve already talked about, what are you thinking about? What are you thinking about that I have not yet asked you in terms of how technology or other aspects of the industry are continuing to evolve? We hear language about ESG, you mentioned IoT, we know the importance of ROI on our real estate decisions, on data to improve ROI. What else should we be thinking about that’s really going to become fundamentally important as commercial real estate continues to evolve?

YB: I think one thing that is already very fundamentally important and something that we’ve been using for the past, I want to say, 10 years to build on all of the different technology integrations or perspectives that would feed into corporate real estate is data, big data. It’s a big thing. It’s not something that came about and then we kind of put it on the side. It’s something that we still see today and we’re still using today. To me, there are several critical areas that are going to be shaping the future of corporate real estate. ESG, like you mentioned, and to everybody listening, ESG is environmental social governance within a corporate organization or within an organization in general, whatever it is. Sustainability is no longer an only option. Sustainability is a big thing and in other parts of the world, so in the Americas, and I’m sure you’ve seen that David, sustainability has been a big thing for the past more than 10 years.

DA: For sure.

YB: In the region here, it’s the concentration on sustainability is something that is part of our post-COVID movement within corporate real estate as well, right? It has, of course, the environmental impact, sustainability, any corporate social responsibility that is tied in with the ESG is something that a lot of companies are now looking into and wanting to dive deeper into as well, with increasing focus on, of course, how buildings can contribute to community well-being and social equity within a company, within, sorry, a space or the city that they’re in, because it’s no longer just a corporate responsibility. It’s become a government responsibility and there are so many government initiatives that are being put into place to ensure that any new developer, any new company that comes into their space or their country or their city is making sure that they tick all the boxes when it comes to these things. It’s very, very important, increasingly so in the region specifically, I want to say.

DA: Well, I think you just highlighted all the different stakeholders that now need to be part of this conversation, right? 

YB: Of course, yeah. 

DA: Here in North America, buildings went, you know, we introduced the LEED certification program to focus in on sustainability, but I think you’re right, it’s the occupant, it’s the building, it’s the occupier, it’s the occupants and clearly a role for government as well to play.

YB: 100%. I mean, specifically in the UAE, for example, and I’m going to speak to the UAE because I’m in Dubai at the moment, the government is very adamant on ensuring, because it’s a very fast-paced city, right? The government is very adamant on ensuring that whatever new built environments are coming about, regardless of what the internal experience is going to be, it needs to feel like it is something that will not be harmful to the surrounding areas and will take into account everything around it from an environmental, sustainable perspective, as well as from a community perspective, because they’re not only developing buildings, like I mentioned, it is more so developing communities around the spaces.

DA: Right. Neighbourhoods. Neighbourhoods and cities.

YB: They all connect. Yes, 100%.

DA: Our closing speed round, Yara, is an opportunity to get to know you a little bit better on a personal level.

YB: Okay, let’s go.

DA: Some quick responses to a series of questions. Looking back, what’s the one piece of advice you wish someone had given you when you first started out in your career?

YB: That change is inevitable, I think. Just roll with it. Every experience that you get is a learning experience, and when you take it as such, nothing is too bad.

DA: Right, agreed, agreed. Is there a favourite book or podcast that has positively impacted your approach to work or life?

YB: Favourite book or podcast? No, not specifically. I think I have diverse experiences around me, but there is one that I think is just important, is don’t only bring the professional things that you learn around you into your business, also bring the personal. I think we have a huge separation of personal and professional. A book you read on gardening can really help the way that you look at your professional career or the solutions that you’re bringing to the table in your professional life as well.

DA: Yeah, great insight. Name one way in which technology has improved how you live or work.

YB: One way that it’s improved, I mean it’s improved them in multiple ways, but smart home technology has really improved my work from home experience, I must say.

DA: Commercial real estate is continuing to evolve, we’ve talked at length about that. Do you think there are any unique skill sets or expertise that will be required in commercial real estate that historically has not necessarily been needed? What new skills, what new experience do we need in people that we’re going to bring into the industry that perhaps we haven’t had in the past?

YB: So I touched upon how important data analysis, data analytics are and the integration. The integration within the change management or the transformation change management and experience strategy piece is where I think is still missing. I think there’s still there that link that is yet to be completed and I think we’re going to see a lot of it in the future.

DA: Right, okay. If you were not doing what you’re doing right now, what would you be doing instead?

YB: That’s a great question David and it brings me to the point of my gardening book. I would most likely be a florist if I wasn’t doing what I was doing.

DA: All right, that’s great. It’s great to have that sort of what if, what I would be doing if not. Yara, thank you so much for joining me on the program today and for sharing your experience, your perspective, your thinking, your thoughts about the industry, bringing us the perspective of a different geography and I’m so glad that we were able to connect and in this case use technology to bring Canada and Dubai together. A single moment in time and get to know one another and so again really appreciate your time and I look forward to continuing the conversation and continuing to build our relationship.

YB: Thank you so much David. I really enjoyed this conversation. I really really did enjoy it. So thank you so much for having me.

DA: Our pleasure. Thank you so much.

YB: Thank you.

DA: Bye now. 

DA: That’s a wrap on today’s episode of 10. I want to thank James for joining me on the program. If you enjoyed this episode don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review. It helps others find the show. Thanks for listening and until next time I wish you all continued success in building community where you work and live.